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MOUNT MADONNA
SCHOOL
Interview with
John Lewis
Congressman,
5th District of Georgia
May 23rd, 2000
John Lewis: Let me say that I am delighted and very
happy and very pleased to have you here. I look forward
each year to your visit. There've been, several groups
of students over the years who have come by and I
love seeing the reports and the results of your visit,
not only to my office, but to the offices of other
members, people in Administration, and all of the
people in Washington.
You know from your research, from your readings,
and film or video, that I didn't grow up in Washington
or in Atlanta, but in Alabama as the son of a sharecropper;
a tenant farmer.
As a young boy, it was my responsibility to care
for the chickens. From time to time I used to preach
to the chickens. I won't bore you with this story
- I'll make it short because I know you have such
limited time, but I used to talk to the chickens.
I know that sounds sort of weird and strange, but
I used to talk to the chickens and preach to the chickens.
When I look back on it, some of these chickens would
bow their heads, some of them would shake their heads.
They never quite said 'Amen' but I think the great
majority of those chickens that I preached to in the
forties and in the fifties tended to listen to me
better that the majority of my colleagues listen to
me today in the Congress. (Laughter) And in so many
ways, these chickens were a little more productive.
They lay eggs.
Growing up there in rural Alabama during the forties
and fifties, when we would visit the town of Troy,
about ten miles from our home, or the city of Montgomery,
or Birmingham, I saw those signs that said, "white
men", "colored men", "white women", "colored women",
"white waiting", "colored waiting". As a young child,
I tasted the bitter fruits of racism.
I remember very well when I was young, going downtown
to the public library, and trying to get a library
card, and trying to check some books out with my brothers
and sisters and a few of my first cousins. We were
told by the librarian that the library was for whites
only and not for coloreds But I went back to the Pack
County Public Library in Troy, Alabama on July 5,
1998, almost two years ago, for a book signing, and
they gave me a library card. It says something about
the distance we've come in this nation to a laying
down of the burden of racism, to making our country
a better country, a better place.
Now some of you may know that thirty-five years ago,
when I was much younger, had all of my hair and was
a few pounds lighter, I led a march across the Epnipedis
Bridge in Selma, Alabama, for the right to vote. As
we got to the apex of the bridge we saw a sea of blue;
Alabama State Troopers, and we continued to walk.
We came within hearing distance of the State Troopers
and a man identified himself and said, 'I'm Major
John Cloud of the Alabama State Troopers. This is
an unlawful march; you will not be allowed to continue.
I give you three minutes to disperse and return to
your church. In less than a minute and a half, Major
John Cloud said, 'Troopers, advance!' Then you saw
these men putting on their gas masks. They came toward
us, beating us with night sticks, bull whips, tramping
us with horses, releasing the teargas. I was hit in
the head by a state trooper with a nightstick and
I received a concussion at the bridge.
When we marched there thirty-five years ago, there
was not a single woman among the state troopers. There
was not a single African American among the state
troopers. But when we went back there just a few months
ago, on March 5th, President Clinton walked across
the bridge with us and there were women and African
Americans within the troopers who stood and saluted
us. The Governor of the State of Alabama met us on
the other side of the bridge. He said to me, "welcome
home, John Lewis". So I think all of this says that
we've made progress and we will continue to make progress.
I've said to you as students, as young people, you
must do what you can to help alleviate the problems
of race, hate, and intolerance. Do what you can to
help build what I like to call the 'beloved community';
a truly open society; a truly interracial democracy;
a community at peace with itself.
I'll tell you one last story that I tell from time
to time. When I was growing outside of Troy, Alabama,
I had an Aunt who lived in a shotgun house. Now you,
being from California, you don't know what a shotgun
house is, so don't try to fool me, you don't know
what it is and I know it. (Laughter) I know you are
very smart; you read all of the great books and you
are very smart. You wouldn't be here if you weren't
smart, but you don't know anything about a shotgun
house!
This Aunt of mine lived in this shotgun house. This
old house had a tin roof and at night, sometimes you
could look up through the ceiling, through the roof
and you could count the stars. Sometimes when it would
rain, she would take a pail or a bucket and catch
the rainwater. From time to time, she would go out
into the woods and get some branches from a dogwood
tree and make what she called a 'brush broom', and
she would sweep this dirt yard very, very clean.
Now for some of you who may not know what a shotgun
house is, a shotgun house is an old house with a tin
roof where you can bounce a ball through the front
door and the ball will go straight out the back door.
In the military sense, a shotgun house is one where
you can fire a gun through the front door and the
bullet would go straight through the back door. My
aunt lived in a shotgun house.
One day, a group of my brothers and sisters and
a few of my first cousins, about 12 or 15 of us, were
out playing in her dirt yard and an unbelievable storm
came up. The wind started blowing, the thunder started
rolling, the lightning started flashing and the rain
started beating on this old shotgun house' tin roof.
My aunt got us all on the inside. The wind continued
to blow, the thunder continued to roll, the lightning
continued to flash and the rain continued to rain
on this old house. My aunt became terrified. She started
crying, and as little children, we all started crying.
She suggested that we all should hold hands and we
did as we were told; we held hands. And when one corner
of this old house appeared to be lifting from its
foundation, we would walk to that corner trying to
hold this house down with our little bodies. When
the other corner appeared to be lifting, we would
walk to that side, trying to hold the house down with
our little bodies. We were little children walking
with the wind, but we never left the house.
And that's what we've been doing in America in the
past forty or fifty years; walking from Selma to Montgomery,
to Atlanta, to Washington; all of us, black and white,
young and old, rich and poor. We've been trying to
hold the American house together to create one house,
one family; the American house, the American family.
So you must play a role in helping to hold not just
American house together but the world house together.
Thank you for very much for being here.
Karl Holkznecht: We asked this question to
Congressman Farr this morning, and he replied by saying
that you would be the person who could best answer
it for us. We asked him: Sheldon Wolin, who is a political
philosopher, once said that, "the strength of democracy
has been its capacity to confront difference and to
cherish it, not to just think of it as an impediment
toward the rational decision-making process." How
can we foster an attitude, which embraces our diversity,
not just tolerates it?
John Lewis: I agree with the philosopher, so much
so, that as a society and as a nation we must do more
than tolerate diversity, we must celebrate it. We
must celebrate our differences, build on our differences,
respect our differences, and integrate the differences
into the larger society. We have to come to that point
and realize it doesn't matter whether our foremothers
and our forefathers all came to this country in different
ships; we are all in the same boat now. So it doesn't
matter whether you're black or white, or Hispanic
or Asian American or Native American. We all bring
something to the table; we all bring something to
this pie. We all are different ingredients to help
make this house stand, make it work well for all of
us. That is the beauty of our democratic ideal. Just
think, some of us were not included in the Constitution.
Just think; women could not vote, but our democracy
has continued to expand. In a sense, the Constitution
is a living document. It is forever moving, growing.
So our democratic society is opening up to bring more
people in, so no one will be left out or left behind.
Jenny Johnston: There are a lot of young people
out there who refer to the Civil Rights movement as
a part of history and not an on-going struggle. What
do you think we can do to instill the spirit into
today's young people, that so many people had during
the movement, and also, what issues do you consider
similarly compelling in today's society?
John Lewis: I would say the Civil Rights movement,
on one hand, is history, but it is part of an on-going
struggle. It is history in the making. I think some
people look on the sixties or maybe the fifties as
ancient history. I would like to think that it is
on-going, it's continuing. We still have problems,
and they are not problems just dealing with the question
of race or one segment of a particular ethnic group.
We must look at this movement not just as a Civil
Rights movement but as a Human Rights movement. That
people left out because of class in addition to race,
maybe sex, or some other division that we use to discriminate
against people, that we try to hold people down with,
must be considered.
I believe strongly that one of the issues that we
must deal with is the whole question of health. I
happen to believe that health care is a right and
it's not a privilege, that all of our people, and
it doesn't matter whether you live in California or
live in Alabama, whether you live in Maine or Mississippi,
that you should have affordable health care. I think
is a basic right, and the quality of your health care
shouldn't be determined on the basis of the size of
your wallet or your zip code. So we have this unbelievable
disparity in the delivery of health care between the
minority population and the majority population.
Another issue that I'm greatly concerned about is
the whole question of the environment. I think we
have an obligation to save the environment. People
have a right to know what is in the food they eat,
they have a right to know what is in the water we
drink, and what is in the air we breathe. This little
planet we call Earth is not ours to own or to waste,
but to use what we need and leave it a little cleaner
and a little greener and a little more peaceful for
future generations.
Mira Vissel: How have your experiences in
the Civil Rights movement affected your actions as
a Congressional policy maker?
John Lewis: Each day, when I am taking the vote on
the floor, making a statement, or back in my district
in Georgia, I think I am greatly influenced by my
involvement in the Civil Rights movement. In a strange
way, I guess, you may see my involvement in politics,
or maybe as a Congressperson, as an extension of my
participation in the Civil Rights movement. I don't
think I've changed that much. My philosophy hasn't
changed. I continue to talk about the 'beloved community',
the interracial democracy, a society at peace with
itself. I still talk about looking out for the dignity
of human kind, and try to bring some type of moral
position to a lot of the legislative issues that we
debate from time to time.
Laura Johnson: Yesterday, we spoke with Bonnie
Campbell, the Director of the Violence Against Women
Office at the Justice Department. Do you see any parallel
with the Civil Rights struggle and the current call
to educate people about domestic violence as an infringement
upon the most basic human rights of women?
John Lewis: Yes, I really do. I think that someplace
along the way that we must teach men, not just men,
but all people, starting with little children, the
way of non-violence. You know, we have a Department
of Defense in our government. Maybe we should give
some real thought to a Department of Peace and to
start teaching children, young children, the moment
they come into this world, the way of love, the way
of non-violence, and the way of peace. I don't think
people are born being violent towards someone, or
hating them because of their gender, or race, or color.
It is something we learn; something that we are taught.
So we need to teach people to respect all people,
all human beings, including women. Men need to respect
women, boys need to respect girls, and girls need
to respect boys, and women need to respect men; we
are all in this thing together!
I know it sounds strange for a politician to talk
about love. I remember many years ago, during the
Carter Administration, when I was serving as the Associate
Director of Action, I had to testify before a Senate
committee for a confirmation. I used the phrase, 'the
beloved community' and went on to talk about creating
a community at peace with itself, and one of the senators
said, 'Mr. Lewis," I was not a Congressman then, "Mr.
Lewis, it is good to hear someone use the word love.
It's been a long time since we've heard that word
in these hallowed halls' or something to that effect.
Katie Fayram: Vartan Gregorian said that,
"total commitment to every good cause is total apathy
because you can't act on all of them." How do you
prioritize your commitments as a Congressman when
there are so many good causes needing attention?
John Lewis: Now that is an important question. It's
a good question because there are so many, so many
things. People call on you to do this, to sign this
letter, sign this petition, and you cannot answer
every call. You may feel obligated to, but sometimes
you have to do what I call, "have an executive session
with yourself" and say "self, listen" - I know it
sounds strange, I understand the psychology to be
talking to yourself - but just say, "This is what
I'm going to do and this is all that I can do.'"
There are several issues that I would like to be
involved in. Right now, one of my major concerns,
as I tried to indicate earlier, is the whole question
of health. I would like to be involved in abolishing
the death penalty. Maybe some day I will reach that
point where I can spend a lot of time dealing with
it. I just think it's something that a civilized society
should not be involved with because it's not in keeping
with the philosophy and the discipline of non-violence.
Somebody will want you to go here, and go there but
you have to say, "this is all I can do this day, this
week, this month, this year." Maybe you lend someone
your name, or you may sign a petition, but to go out
and protest, and to risk getting arrested and going
to jail or being beaten, you just have to say, "this
is the one I'm going to stand up for…this is the one
I want to fight for."
Sometimes that's hard. Sometimes it's very difficult.
You could spread yourself too thin and then you lose
your happiness.
Alicia Weston-Miles: What is the government's
role in creating schools and other institutions in
which hope, compassion and justice are all prime attributes?
John Lewis: I think there is a role for the government
at both the national level, as well as the local level,
in creating that environment. I don't think the federal
government can do it alone. There must be a revolution
of values and ideas; I think in the final analysis,
the schools, teachers, religious institutions, must
play that role, but those of us in elected positions
can also play a role in carrying that message. I'm
not so sure the institution of the government can
play that role. It's not something that the government
can mandate. There is going to be a revolution of
ideas and values that must be instilled in all of
us by teachers, our parents, our religious leaders
and others.
Chris Sun: In Walking With the Wind, you describe
many great leaders who are offered not only respect
but also love and devotion by those who followed them.
In your opinion, is there anyone in today's world
who is capable of leading America and to where they
have a similar devotion?
John Lewis: There must be someone in America that
has the capacity and the ability. There must be someone
in America who is the personification of that idea,
of a leading people to a much higher level. At this
junction, at this point, it is difficult for me to
say one person over another person. I think at one
point in our history, we had a breed of people that
were so committed, so dedicated that they were ready
and willing to put their bodies on the line for their
ideas, for their beliefs. I'm not so sure we have
that many people today.
To go on with your question, I often think today
we have so much possibility with the media, with the
new technology, that the leaders and followers could
use. During the sixties, we never heard of the internet.
We didn't have a web page. We didn't even have a little
cellular telephone, or a fax machine. We just had
some ideas and we did what I call, 'putting ourselves
in the way'. I don't know how many people in high
places, in elected positions, whether in the religious
community, in civic organizations, or in government
these days, are prepared and willing to put themselves
in the way. You don't know how its' going to work
out, but you are willing to put yourself in the way.
That's what is needed. We need men and women of courage,
and that's with raw courage, not worrying about the
next election, but what can I do to make a difference?
Zack Donoghue: Could the Civil Rights movement
have been so effective without the non-violence component?
John Lewis: I don't think the Civil Rights movement
could have been effective without the philosophy and
the discipline of non-violence. The movement came
of age almost with television. Without the media,
you wouldn't have had the machinery to translate,
or transport the ideas, and the message of the movement
to the lawyers' society. The philosophy and the discipline
of non-violence was something so different, it created
a great deal of excitement. It ushered in a great
expectation, and gave people a great sense of hope
and optimism that you could change things in a peaceful,
orderly, non-violent fashion.
Jesse Bazarnick: For all the challenges in
your journey as a public servant over these past forty
years, was there ever a time when you felt so discouraged
and so disillusioned that you considered giving up?
And if so, how did you find the resolve to keep going?
John Lewis: Never, ever, in the past forty years
of my involvement in the Civil Rights movement, did
I ever consider giving up. I say to people today,
especially young people, you must never, ever give
up. You must never, ever give in or give out. You
must keep the faith, keep your eyes on this prize
and hold on to your dream. Again, you come to that
point and say that the struggle is not a struggle
that lasts just for one day or for one week or one
month or one year; it is a struggle of a lifetime.
That's what it takes to be able to build a beloved
community. You pace yourself. I tell some of my smart
staff people around here sometimes, to 'pace yourself'.
I remember during the sixties, there were people who
would come south to work, and they thought maybe in
one month or one summer or one semester, they could
liberate the natives and the struggle would be all
over!
But it's a much longer, on-going struggle, and you
really have to pace yourself for the long haul.
Aaron Jacob-Smith: Spirituality has played a major
role in your life and as a Congressman, I was wondering,
have you ever had to make decisions that have come
into conflict with this spiritual background? And
how have you dealt with these?
John Lewis: I consider myself a person of faith.
I don't necessarily wear it on my sleeves, and I don't
wear it on my left lapel, but I consider myself a
person of faith. I believe deeply in prayer. Many
times, before I get ready to make a decision, or I
make a major statement on the floor of the house,
I say a little prayer to myself.
I remember when we were debating the whole question
of impeachment two years ago. It was very sad, and
a dark hour for the country. The morning before, getting
up, I just didn't want to get out of bed. I just didn't
want to walk two blocks to the Capital. I knew what
we would be facing. However, I prayed about it; I
got up, I got dressed, I came to the floor of the
House and I was called on to speak. I had spoken the
Friday and Saturday before, and they said, "we have
some more time, will you speak?" I hadn't prepared
anything, I just got up and started talking. People
have said that it was probably the best speech I have
ever given. So sometimes you don't know how things
are going to work out in just doing what the Spirit
says do, and you do it. That's what I tried to do
on that day.
I remember on one occasion, since I've been here,
we had to vote to get a rule up in order to let the
crime bill come to the floor. It went down, and it
needed only a few votes. The President called me down
to the White House with another member and got us
to make a commitment to vote for the rule, if we even
voted against the crime bill. I was against the crime
bill because of the death penalty, and that was a
real problem for me. So I changed, and voted for the
rule but I still insisted that I wouldn't vote for
the bill itself and that's what happened.
Dov Rohan: What do you think are the biggest
challenges facing our democracy today?
John Lewis: The biggest challenge facing our democracy
today is how do we keep people from dropping out?
What do we do to keep people, our citizens, from becoming
cynical? My greatest fear is that the day will soon
come in America, if we don't find a way to keep people
engaged, when we will stop counting the people that
are voting, that are participating, and we'll start
counting the people who are not voting, who are not
participating. That is dangerous. We can have some
demagogue that can emerge overnight that would be
a real threat to our democracy. If we only let a very
small group of well-organized people control our politics,
control our election, that is dangerous.
What we need more than anything else, to protect
our democracy is what your own Congressperson, Sam
Farr, and others have been deeply concerned about;
we need campaign financial reform. It is obscene,
it is crazy, the amount of money that people must
spend. It's too much money. There's too many members
in Congress, too many other elected officials around
the country, spending too much time dialing for dollars
in order to get elected. So we have got to do something
about getting some of this money out of our electoral
process, out of our campaigns.
It is the looting of the political process.
Alison Alserdice: Jacob Needleman believes in something
he calls 'conscience time'. It's when you go through
an extraordinary experience and are able to see things
more clearly than you did before. Unfortunately, this
often lasts for only a few moments. As an activist,
did you ever experience 'conscience time' and what
effect did it have on your life?
John Lewis: I truly believe that on March 7th, 1965,
we were attempting to walk from Selma to Montgomery.
For a brief moment, just a brief moment, I saw something
that I had never seen before. I thought I saw death,
because I thought I was going to die. In a real sense,
while I was being beaten and left lying there, sort
of in and out of conscienceness, it was almost like,
I guess you could call it a transformation. Something
was happening. None of us know what dying or death
is like but I will never forget that moment, I will
never forget the day.
I'm grateful that I'm still here. I think I was
alive to stay here for a purpose. I don't know how
I can respond to that.
Student: Based on all your experiences
in the movement and in life, what do you think is
the most important piece of advice you can give
our generation?
John Lewis: More than anything else, I think you,
this generation of young people that will emerge as
leaders of the 21st century, must find something to
do that is so noble, so right, and so necessary, that
you will rise up and forget about your own circumstances,
your own predicament, and get involved in the circumstances
of others. It is not right for any of us not to get
a good education. Everyone should try to get the best
possible education, a good job, move into a nice neighborhood,
and have a few televisions sets, a few computers,
all of that. That's okay! But life is more than that.
Find a way to make a contribution.
I think is was Horace Mann, the father of modern
education, who suggested on one occasion, that we
should be ashamed to leave this world, ashamed to
die until we have made some contribution to humanity.
What this generation of students and young people
must be concerned about is what my generation was
concerned about also: That is to do what we can to
enhance the dignity of human kind. It doesn't matter
whether this is in Morocco, or in Africa, or in Asia
or in Central or South America or in Europe. We all
are tied together and what affects one, affects us
all.
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John
Lewis was born the son of sharecroppers on February
21, 1940 outside of Troy, Alabama, where he grew up
on his family's farm and attended segregated public
schools, in Pike County, Alabama. He holds a Bachelor
of Arts Degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk
University and is a graduate of the American Baptist
Theological Seminary in Nashville, Tennessee. John
Lewis was very much involved with the civil rights
movement from the time that he entered college. During
the height of the Civil Rights Movement, from 1963
to 1966, Lewis was the Chairman of the Student Nonviolent
Coordinating Committee (SNCC).